Wendy Corr:
Well, hey there folks. Welcome to the Roundup. We are a Cowboy State Daily podcast, and we focus on interesting people in the cowboy state. Today we get a two for one, because we have two really interesting people who have collaborated on a number of children's books that have taken Wyoming and other children's libraries around the country by storm.
This is just a phenomenal conversation we're going to have today with Zak Pullen and Casey Rislov. First, though, I want to make sure that you know about another podcast that's out there. It's the Wyoming Business Alliance “Business From the Basement” podcast. If you're a business person in Wyoming, this is a must have in your playlist for your podcasts to find out more about how you can be a successful business person in the cowboy state.
Don't go there right yet, though, because first we are going to have a fantastic conversation with two of the state's most creative people. I'm just tickled to be able to introduce people, if you have not yet met them, if you go into your local bookstore, you will see their work - so Zak Pullen, Casey Rislov, welcome to the Roundup.
Casey Rislov:
Thank you, Wendy, thanks for having us.
Zak Pullen:
Thanks for having us.
Wendy Corr:
I am so tickled. So folks, I first, oh, good look at that. There it is. “A Home for Steamboat””. This is the most recent collaboration for these two, but you've got a great backstory of how you two began. Oh, Rowdy Randy. Oh, and don't forget that, you know, I'm sure you got the other one, Rowdy Randy.
Zak Pullen:
Just shameless.
Casey Rislov:
It's here in my stack somewhere.
Wendy Corr:
I want to start out first with letting people know you both are Casper natives. So you're from Casper, born and raised Casper, well mostly, and then you went your separate ways, even though you went to high school together. I'm going to start with Zak. Zak, tell me about how you guys knew each other but didn't know each other growing up.
Zak Pullen:
So we went to school together. We graduated together in 1994 - sorry Casey, we're going to date ourselves. So I kind of was the creative side of things in the art room all the time, and all that. Casey did her own thing, and we kind of never ran in the same circles. Probably, you know, surfacely, kind of knew of each other, but not actually like met or known each other. Graduated with a large class, and yeah, we reconnected. What, wasn’t it 20 years later?
Wendy Corr:
That's pretty great. Casey, after high school, you kind of went into teaching, into the education field, correct?
Casey Rislov:
I did. I did. I went to Casper College, and UW and I know Zak was at Casper College too, but we didn't run into each other there either. Um, but then, yeah, I went to teaching at the Child Development Center for seven years, so I could teach up to sixth grade.
I loved being the preschool teacher, though it was fun. Art teacher, PE teacher, you know, read all those fabulous picture books, which is what spring springboarded me forward to books.
Wendy Corr:
Absolutely that then Zak, you had gone to, like, this whole different - you left Wyoming, you went to New York City, and you, like, were in the whole illustrator world for big name publications.
Zak Pullen:
Yeah, so when I graduated in ‘94, like Casey said, I did Casper College. I went for two years, I never got an associates from Casper College, unfortunately.
Wendy Corr:
I did the same thing, and didn't get my associates in Casper College either.
Zak Pullen:
Yeah, I'm missing like two classes, but yeah, neither here nor there. So, but my second year at Casper College, I was offered a scholarship to go to the Columbus College of Art and Design in Columbus, Ohio.
And so I went out to Columbus, Ohio, finished art school there, um, graduated with my Bachelor of Fine Arts in illustration, moved back, got married, and a month after we got married, we moved to New York. We lived in the city, but we lived upstate, and yeah, I was trumping my portfolio around New York City a couple times a week, trying to get work.
Wendy Corr:
And you found work, and were featured in some pretty impressive publications, but decided that, you know what, this is not for us. We want to get back home to Wyoming.
Zak Pullen:
It's one of those things where I miss New York every single day, but our son was born in 2003 and it was time to get back and kind of show him what Wyoming was all about, and get him back to some family.
Wendy Corr:
Absolutely. Casey, what actually launched you to writing your own children's books? Because I know that, like you say, you've got this heart for the kids and heart for teaching, but you said, You know what? I've got my own creativity here, and I want to present something to the kids that I have a heart for.
Casey Rislov:
Yeah, it was just interesting. It's just one of those doors that opened up, right? So I was teaching for a couple years, as it takes a couple years to get comfortable as a teacher, especially in a special needs classroom, because you got OTs in your classroom all the time, PT, like somebody's always in your room, sharing their specialties to help you out too as a teacher, because they can't always be there.
So after I calmed down, after a couple years figuring things out, I just noticed at night, I couldn't stop thinking about my own ideas for books. I don't know, one of those God given gifts that all of a sudden, you know, these ideas are coming my way.
And then I still never plan on doing much with them. But then my mom, after about six years of teaching, ended up with breast cancer, and so it's one of those hard turns in life, and we end up losing her to it. So then you'd have that hard turn, and you're like, Well, life is pretty you know, you can go anyway.
And so you just realize you can make any moment your way. So I just kind of went for it, but then I remember my husband, in the meantime, was like, Okay, you have a masters. You're doing really well. Like, okay, you gotta have some help if you're going to do this, right?
So I went and saw Vicky at Wind City when she owned it, and Zak just had a studio a block away, and she's just like, Well, between the two of us, because it's two different aspects of the book business, you know, we can help you out. And both of them are very helpful from the beginning.
I think I've, I have visited Zak at least every other week, probably, since this whole relationship started to get help, and we did not do books together until my fifth book.
Wendy Corr:
So you had written four books up until this point, but then in the fifth book, you had an idea for something for a different character, and that's when Zak's talents came into play. Tell me about Rowdy Randy, because Rowdy Randy is really, really a fun, fun character.
Casey, you start the story, and we'll go to Zak and have him fill in, fill in the blanks there.
Casey Rislov:
Okay, perfect. So kind of started with, I grew up with the Wyoming Wildlife Magazine, which I still love. I mean, admire. I mean, the photography and that thing is amazing. And then to learn about the wildlife, well, I just feel like, and I also go to national parks all the time. It's just something I do at least yearly, if not a couple times.
And I just, looking at the books there, I just felt like there was never that illustrated book that, you know, made the animals realistic. And guess who I knew could definitely make that happen?
And so I went to see him to see if he liked my idea. But I knew it couldn't just stop there. I knew I wanted something small, a little character, that when the kids turn the page, that would cause chaos every you know what's, what's this character going to do now?
And I hadn't had the character figured out yet, but I presented those two ideas, telling them, I kind of want to collide itt like a lot of movies are, anymore, right? Like you collide ideas together. Oh, and Zak came up with the character immediately. I like a 10 second beat the most.
Wendy Corr:
So tell us, Zak, tell us about the character of Rowdy Randy. Rowdy Randy, the horse fly in Wyoming.
Speaker 3 08:19
I think I did. I think, as we were talking about it like, the more that the calamity of the idea was, it was like, what's the smallest, most annoying thing that we have, you know, minus a mosquito, like it was a horse fly, like it, it pulled in the obvious, you know, like the annoyance and the biting and all that stuff. But it also brought in that wildlife aspect of it.
And so then figuring out, like, oh, okay, so this figure, this horse fly has to be female, because the females are the only ones that bite and like, they have to have the blood and all this stuff like, it just kind of with one little idea, just kind of snowballs into like, Okay, now this is our world, you know, like, this is the world that this character would live in.
And most people in Wyoming have been annoyed, if not bitten by a horse fly. And know how awful it is? Oh, it's awful. And so the idea was like, but this horse fly has no idea what she is doing. Like, you know, it's that tiny pebble in the river type of thing. Like, okay, those ripples go on and on and on and so, but the pebble doesn't necessarily know that.
And so, Rowdy Randy doesn't necessarily know the chaos that she causes. And I think that oblivious nature of her and her short lifespan, it is the best setting for the character
Wendy Corr:
That is too much fun now, Rowdy Randy was a hit and Rowdy. Randy made, made those ripples right there. Rowdy Randy and Rowdy. Randy was so popular that you had to tell a second story. There's a second story about Rowdy Randy. Casey, tell us about the second story.
Speaker 2
I'm going to pull it out too. It's under my computer. Um, the second story because, gosh, we have a lot of stories we want to tell about Randy, but this is she has her own Wild West Show. So this one is a little bit more about leadership, right? Because if you're going to have a Wild West Show. So she's that female leadership embodiment.
So she's still ornery and sassy, and has all the things that she has to say, but, and there's a lot more animals in this book, but she does a good job of doing the show because Buffalo Bill Cody, he's hanging around in the background. Zak has him hiding in different ways, at least on every other page, and by the end, he has stolen the idea for the show.
And who knows, maybe he did get the idea from animals, because we did showcase their real talents in this book. I mean, that was, that was half the fun, was that research, like Zak did on a horse fly,
Wendy Corr:
That is too much fun. What's the collaboration? How does this work? Who does what? And how do you figure that out. Zak, how does that work?
Zak Pullen:
I think when we originally talk about something, it's kind of like, okay, so here's a general idea. Casey goes and writes a general idea. And it may take months, it may, you know, take weeks, a year, whatever.
And then she comes over and we just, we mark it up, we Red Line 90% of it, and figure out, like, Okay, so there's a nugget here that we could take forward. And, you know, the story starts playing itself in my mind and shows me ways that we can, like, kind of zig and zag through a story.
And Casey's good about taking notes and adding herself to it, and kind of, that's where our stories, that's where our stories kind of take place. Is between our notepads.
Casey Rislov:
Redlining is, I go into Zak's studio and I, you know, I bring him, I usually have like, a story edited where it's decent to read, you know, but it's pretty basic, you know, when I'm coming in and he reads it, and I'm telling you - again, there's that 10 second rule. All of a sudden, he is spewing all the ideas out, and I am trying my best to keep up with his ideas.
So the redlining is, he's given me so many of, I'm only going to take, like you said, 10%, but they are awesome ideas. Like his mind is just, it's quick and it's very creative, like it's all over the place.
Wendy Corr:
Well, then you also have to have the, like you say, the research. You have to research the animals. You have to research how they would react, and what their environments are, and all that sort of stuff. And then is that the best part? Do you love that?
Casey Rislov:
It is, I agree, and even the Western language, because that's, you know, not a language everybody uses. So I really have to do that too.
Wendy Corr:
That's fantastic. But then Zak has to put color and to put these characters to life. Why is she green? Why is Rowdy Randy green?
Zak Pullen:
Why does Rowdy Randy have pupils? Like, it's kind of that same thing. Like when I was trying to come up with her, like some of the most putrid visuals that I could find of a horse fly was like that gross green color, and it's hilarious, because we associate spring with it, but it's such a putrid, awful color.
But then it was like, Okay, how am I going to connect her with, like, these 1000s of eyes, like, how am I going to let her have eye contact with you? And so I, I thought, like, okay, so what if these flies it was just the eyelids that had all those multi faceted eyes?
And yeah, so and, but they could raise and there would be pupils and, yeah, it's just like, Okay, how can we have fun but still keep it, you know, interesting. It seems if it was a natural fly, it would not be a cute character in any way. Nobody would like her, like she wouldn't have anything redeeming.
Wendy Corr:
Well, I'm so tickled that you were able to make her adorable, because she is and she's sassy, and that's fun. And so because it's a children's book, it seems like a lot of that, then the work gets tossed then to Zak, but it's very much a collaboration. And so how does that work? Because Zak, now it's all on your desk. It's all on your artist studio there. Where does Casey come back in, then, to make her wishes? You know, she's writing the words. You're doing the illustrations. How does that collaboration continue?
Zak Pullen:
I think it's all about teamwork and so. But what you're not, what's necessarily not in that conversation yet, is the editors and the art directors and the designers and all of the copy editors and all that stuff. So once Casey's words are done, yeah, they are somewhat done, but then it has to go to the editor, and my ideas, my sketches that I do, might change some of those words.
And so our creative team is amazing at like, seeing the flyers and seeing the possibility of like, Oh, what if we use this instead? Or this doesn't quite fit, I don't think 10% of the population is going to understand that word. We need something that 90% of the population can understand.
And so it's a collaboration almost from the get, and so I think while I'm working on pencil drawings and paintings and all of this stuff, because I'm a traditional oil painter, like Casey's in the studio, stuff kind of come alive.
That's what's cool about us working on books. I've never had that before, necessarily, where authors can kind of come in and see where their book is headed. From my perspective, yeah, it's just a it's it's a cool, it's a cool way to do books.
Wendy Corr:
Casey, tell me about the business end of this, once you guys have your book put together, you get it out there, you promote it, and it has become, like, I say, a fantastically popular children's book series, with the two books. Casey, where does the collaboration come and how do you get the book in front of so many people?
Casey Rislov:
Marketing. Well, with Rowdy Randy, I ended up with national distribution right away, with Small Press United. And so they give you the tools and help you out there. Now consider, IBP is what I'm part of, though, which is an independent book group association that helps you.
But both of those have helped me, and they help you get discounts on marketing and all the things you need to do, and the classes, they're constantly trainings, something you can just read articles that keep you in the loop non stop.
So I've been doing that, but with Steamboat, I think we found the best way to collaborate, I mean, and it's great to use those national resources, but guess what? We use local people. And Zak and I decided to do that from the very beginning, from from everything.
Even, to finish up the book, as we were talking about earlier with the musicians, and because we just knew Steamboat is a very much a Wyoming book.
Zak Pullen:
That was before we started recording. So Wendy, jump in there and do your business.
Wendy Corr:
Exactly oh my gosh. So let's talk about Steamboat, because this is something we talked about before we got started recording here is talking about the newest book that has come out. Which came out, I believe, in March, correct?
Zak Pullen:
April 15.
Wendy Corr:
April 15. Okay, there you go. “A Home for Steamboat”, which, of course, we're in the Cowboy State, folks, Steamboat is our national treasure. For anybody who has a license plate, we have Steamboat as part of our regular lives.
So this has been a really unique collaboration with more than just bookstores, with more than just author, illustrator, you brought in musicians for “A Home for Steamboat”. First off, let's talk about the story. Let's talk so Casey, tell us the story of “A Home for Steamboat”. What's the synopsis?
Casey Rislov:
“A Home for Steamboat” is told from Charlie Irwin's point of view. He was the man who owned Steamboat during his glory days, starting in his second rodeo at Cheyenne Frontier Days. He saw that horse. He knew it was something special. And it's pretty neat.
And you only really hear from Charlie Irwin since the children's book in the beginning and the end. And he is a grandpa at that point, telling his story of when he had Steamboat when he was younger. So it's got a really sweet point of view.
Zak Pullen:
And the only time you see him is in the beginning of the end. His story is the book.
Casey Rislov:
Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that.
Wendy Corr:
So then Zak tell us about illustrating Steamboat, because that's a process in itself, figuring out what, where was Steamboat in all of these stories, and the settings that you put him in the story?
Zak Pullen:
There's so much information, it's kind of like, the story of Steamboat is like a sponge, and it's the amount of stuff that you have to wring out that we were able to tell this story. Like we had to choose which information we chose and which one we didn't, to tell a cohesive story with a really good story arc.
And so a typical children's book is 32 pages. This is 48. It's a much longer book to tell the story of our icon, um, and so I kind of, when we were talking about it like it was like, How in the world are we going to, you know, tell a story in the past from the future. Like, okay, so we're dealing with 1935, going back to early 1900s.
And so one day we were talking, I was like, why don't we utilize one of my all time favorite stories, which was Wizard of Oz, and kind of tell a transformative tale based on color, to where, when Charlie tells his story, it's full color.
So it's not a flashback in the traditional sense, to flashback in that Wizard of Oz sense of like, that perfect time of his life is full color. Everything's vivid.
Wendy Corr:
I have goose bumps. That's just the coolest. Oh, my goodness. So you were able to put together just this wonderful children's book of Steamboat, so that you can introduce the youngest generation, the younger generation, to the icon that they again have seen, they've seen symbols forever, but they don't know why it's the symbol of Wyoming.
So Casey, tell us about how the marketing for this story differs from what you did with - Oh, that's just beautiful. That's just beautiful. Zak, that's beautiful.
Zak Pullen:
Let me jump in before Casey goes down that road, please. Oh, my goodness. So yes, I think it is a story that introduces the youngest readers to the story of Steamboat, which is awesome, but I would venture to say that three in five adults that I talked to have no idea that the horse on our license plate was an actual horse.
So this book bridges gaps, and we're educating adults, or educating middle grade, well, educating High School, like we're hoping those adults learn and infuse that into the youngest kids, because the writing is definitely a little bit older than what your traditional picture book would be.
Wendy Corr:
So you're saying that if there's anybody that's looking for a gift idea for anybody for birthday, for Christmas, no matter what, we should all pick up “A Home for Steamboat”, because this is a book that speaks to all of us in Wyoming.
Zak Pullen:
I think it's a family book. I think it's an all ages book, like the - sorry. And then you can get back to Casey. I think the unfortunate part is that we put age groups or reader ages on books like, who's to say that when I'm 75 I'm not going to love Dr Seuss just as much as I love him when I was six?
And so why do we put an age group or a reading age on a book? And does it make us feel better, or does it make us feel worse? Like, if I pick up a book that says it's for six to eight and I enjoy it just as much, should I feel bad because I enjoy it? Like, I don't know.
Wendy Corr:
A little age shaming there? That's a fantastic point. That's a fantastic point. So let's talk about that thing. Casey, how do you get adults involved in the marketing for this book?
And we're going to go back to this set that we teased just a minute ago about musicians. How did you go about this differently than you did the Rowdy Randy books?
Casey Rislov:
Well, I've noticed, by the way, like on my writing, I've noticed each book I am getting a little older with the groups that we're reading. But Zak and I have talked before. We feel like, and if you even look, like Doctor Seuss, those books had a lot more words in them back in the day, you know, and a lot more pages and a lot more everything than all this level reading right now.
So for me, I just feel like these books even fit what we were reading at a younger age. It's just a different time. But, yeah, I've just noticed that's what I do, so then to market to all the groups, like you said, because that's no easy task, right? To say, Well, this picture book, in today's world, anyways, is for all ages. It's a family book.
Well, we kind of started with, well, this book represents Wyoming, and how does that happen? And we already knew one of the other arts that everybody loves, change your mood in a minute, right? Music. So, Zak and I have added music to Rowdy Randy. That was kind of where I started with the music idea.
Chad Lore out of Casper is very beloved, and goes to schools, and he's a lot of fun. So I had him make a couple Rowdy Randy stories.
And then when I brought the idea to Zak, we, I mean, he, he takes again, he takes it to the ninth degree. Now we're going, we have a goal of 30 musicians. And it did happen, and he did make that his main task. But what a neat task that was to have that many musicians be a part of it.
Zak Pullen:
An amazing, amazing playlist, like, beautiful, like everybody that you want to hear in Wyoming for the most part. And then now we're learning about more Wyoming musicians that we probably should have reached out to, but at the time, like it's a really solid 31 song playlist.
Wendy Corr:
That is fantastic. So there's a QR code in the book, and you click on the QR code that takes you to the playlist. Yeah, and oh, there it is. There it is, right there, back flap. Okay, so when, folks, you go out and get this book, you will get on the back flap. You'll click on, you'll take a picture the QR code and be able to listen to these Wyoming musicians singing songs about Steamboat.
Zak Pullen:
Yeah, some of your favorites, absolutely, yeah.
Wendy Corr:
That is just too much fun. Now, I know that you are taking Steamboat on the road, and you've been doing a lot of book signings and things like that. In fact, you, by the time this podcast airs, you will have just been in Cody, and Kalyn Beasley at Legends bookstore, he is one of the artists and one of the musicians on this.
And you've got such a great plan then to take this story to everywhere that you can. What's next for Steamboat? What's happening after Fourth of July weekend?
Casey Rislov:
Alright, well, we're definitely going to be hitting more rodeos and stuff. But another thing to add that that's part of that QR sticker is we had an audio book made with a local, he's a director, he's just, he's in theaters, but himself and he directs for kids and stuff that he is telling a story.
He's been our voice for Rowdy Randy. If you were to go look on YouTube, he has a great western voice. So if you don't want to read the book, you have a free audio book as part of that QR code. So we want to go to schools after the rodeos and stuff, and really present it and use all these artists. I mean, look at all the different arts we are dabbling into just to make this book a well rounded representing Wyoming.
Zak Pullen:
So our summer is giant, with like, signing at rodeos and doing bookstores and, you know, like the book was at Chugwater for the chili cook off, like it's kind of everywhere. And so we kind of want to represent Wyoming in the best way that we possibly can.
I think that we've done our best to write Wyoming's picture book, and so it's kind of about getting it out there so that QR code, again, music, audiobook playlists, it'll take you to, like, we did a bourbon with Backwards. So we're teaming up with, like, local, and then we're right now working with Blacktooth Brewing, and they're getting ready to can golden ale with the cover of Steamboat.
Wendy Corr:
Back up, you've got a children's book that's going to have the artwork on a beer?
Zak Pullen:
It’s not just for children, not just for kids.
Wendy Corr:
I love this. I love this. It's truly representative of Wyoming. What an amazing, amazing project this has been for both of you. What's next? And I must say, these award winning author and illustrator, because I mean Spur awards, Western Writers awards, Western Heritage Awards, the two of you have just - your trophy cases have to be lined with amazing, amazing awards.
But what's next for the two of you after this summer road trip? Are you guys taking your families on the roads and everything, on the road and everything, and exploring Wyoming?
Casey Rislov:
Sometimes? Yeah, yeah. Sometimes they're just day trips or weekend trips. So it just depends if we can stick them in there. So yeah.
Zak Pullen:
I think our, I think when we did our first week, we did a signing tour, the first week that the book was released. And obviously you're on the road for an entire week, you can't help but talk about ideas. And so there's a notebook out there with several ideas - to be determined.
Wendy Corr:
So we'll be keeping in touch with what's happening with this dynamic duo of Zak Pullen and Casey Rislov. The two of you have just been such a treasure here, and I'm so glad to be able to bring your stories, because it's not just the stories you create, it's the story of who you are and who Wyoming made you.
Because truly, you're both from here. You both grew up here and got inspiration here and life has brought you back. What a great conversation this has been. I am so thrilled to have had this time to get to know both of you.
If you, folks - where should we look online, if we want to purchase the books online, if you don't want to go to your local bookstore - but please, folks, go to your local bookstores. Where can we shoot people for perhaps, if they don't live here.
Zak Pullen:
Honestly, for this one, you can just go to ahomeforsteamboat.com and really, pretty much that'll pretty much direct you anywhere. We each have our own websites, also, like caseyrislovbooks.com and zacharypullen.com, but I think “A Home for Steamboat” handles everything, doesn't it, Casey?
Casey Rislov:
Yeah, I think it does. Yeah, you'll find everything, like even the audiobook and stuff. He has it all set up that way.
Wendy Corr:
That’s great. What a team effort. You guys have a fantastic production team around you as well. And like you say, it's not just the two of you. It's much more than that. But we're so glad that you were able to incorporate so many local Wyoming musicians, artists, just a great team. Thank you both for what you're doing for Wyoming, and appreciate your time today.
Casey Rislov:
You too. Wendy, thank you.
Zak Pullen:
Thanks for having us. Anytime.
Wendy Corr:
Absolutely, folks, thank you for tuning in today. Do not miss out on your opportunity to go to your local bookstore and pick up “A Home for Steamboat”, right there. Casey's got it. Now, you know what to look for, because, of course, that is Zak's amazing artwork throughout this book.
And we've just, we're blessed to have you both here. So thanks for tuning in, folks, to today's really special episode of The Roundup. Thank you Zak, thank you Casey. Have a great week, folks.
