Wendy Corr:
Well, hey there folks. Welcome to The Roundup. We are a Cowboy State Daily podcast, and we focus on really interesting people in the Cowboy State. And today's Roundup is so special, because even though you see this really amazing panel around me, these people are all here to pay tribute to one of the most interesting characters to ever call Wyoming home, and that is Al Simpson.
And for those of us who knew him, personally, his loss is felt. I still, personally, am trying to wrap my mind around a world without Al Simpson in it, and I don't know that I'm going to get used to tha. But these people that have assembled here today to pay tribute to their friend are going to tell us some great stories.
They're going to tell us about the man that truly personified what a politician, a good politician, should be. And so we are so grateful to have had Al, and we're so grateful to have the people here with us today.
I'm just going to quickly introduce everybody - we have former NBC correspondent, Pete Williams. Of course, he's got a much bigger role than that, and has had a much more varied career than that.
We've got Mike Sullivan, former governor of Wyoming, and he is here to tell us some great stories as well.
We have Erskine Bowles. Erskine and Al work together, primarily - they've had a lot of interactions, but we all know Erskine Bowles here in Wyoming, because Erskine and Al were head of a really important committee on fiscal responsibility, and so he's got some great stories to tell.
Rob Wallace, who has known Al for Rob's whole career, and Rob has just been a part of Al and Ann's family, as has Mike Tongour. Mike Tounger, who was his chief of staff and Chief Counsel while Al was in the legislature.
So gentlemen, I'm so grateful to have you here today and I just kind of want to get started here. I think it makes sense to start with Mike Sullivan, as far as getting a sense of who Al was, they have had just such a long history and friendship.
And the really great thing, Mike Sullivan, that I think is just amazing about your friendship is, Mike, you're a Democrat, and Al was a lifelong Republican, but the two of you had a friendship that transcended those boundaries. And tell us, Mike, about how you first encountered Al. We talked about this just before we got on and started the podcast and had us all laughing. So Mike, tell us about your first, first impressions of Al Simpson.
Gov. Mike Sullivan:
I followed Al at the university and followed him as the personality that he was when I was in college. Our parents knew each other. He knew my parents, so I had a relatively close relationship, familiarity with him.
And then I think maybe the first real professional experience was in the legislature. I was a baby lawyer in 1968 and our firm represented the trona companies in the southeast part of the state, and had a small bill, a corner crossing bill, interestingly enough, underground corner crossing.
And we took it down and looked for some sponsors, and we found a couple from the southeast, and Al Simpson and Ed Herschler. So it was my first experience in watching people work across the aisle, and that was Al Simpson and Ed Herschler.
And we watched for 40 days as this became an explosive agenda and an explosive piece of legislation that I watched two of, what I think were the greatest legislators Wyoming has had, they're both superb.
I was still a young legislator, but as he always said, he didn't want to be anything but a legislator.
He didn't want to be an executive. He wanted to legislate, and he did, but we were successful in that, and that was a very, and a close relationship.
The second one that comes to mind is I was involved in a lawsuit which had plaintiffs, more than one plaintiff, and Gerry Spence and Al were representing one, and I was representing, and then another. So I had the great pleasure of sitting in Cody during a trial in which Gerry Spence and Al represented the plaintiff, and I was just sitting taking it all in.
And I got to attend their strategy meetings at the Simpson around the Simpson dinner table and their ribald jokes and comments and that.
Then ultimately, we were serving, I was governor, he was in the Congress, and we had a lot of interaction. Then I got out of my office, and he was still there, but he had an important part, I think, in the fact that I got nominated to go to Ireland, because he was chewing on Bill Clinton's ear a good part of that time when that vacancy arose, and there I ended up in Ireland.
So we've, and then it continued. And the remarkable thing about continuing is, he was still working. He was still going just as strong, and he never changed. That's what I like most about him. He was unique, but he didn't try to change himself.
Wendy Corr:
I agree. I think that's something that most everybody can agree on, that Al stuck to his morals and his own ethics, and in his representation of Wyoming.
Pete Williams, I'm going to go across over here. Pete Williams, you have been following Al for your entire career as a journalist, and so Pete, tell us about your years, you call it as a baby journalist at KTWO in Casper.
Pete Williams:
Yeah, during KTWO’s glory days when I was covering the legislature, that's when I first met Al Simpson, and it was clear at that time that he loved the process of legislating, and he wasn't just out to nail pelts to the wall. He really, truly loved to get things done and achieved bipartisanship.
And you know, it's important to remember how popular Senator Simpson was - when he was re elected in 1984 he was re elected with 78.3% of the vote, which pretty much defined what you might call the Yellow Dog democrat vote in Wyoming. That is a high water mark that was hard to meet.
But when Al first ran for the US Senate, I had an interview program, and at the time, he was railing against the Senate seniority system. And on the air, I said, Senator Simpson, what is your Alan Simpson, Mr. Simpson, what is your objection to the seniority system? And he said, Well, it's like a cesspool. The big clumps rise to the top.
And years later, I reminded him about that when he was the whip in the Senate. And I said, Senator Simpson, do you still agree with that? And he said, Oh, no, I was misinformed.
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Wendy Corr:
Is there any one of you that does not have an Al Simpson-ism? Because I think that's one of those things that Al was so good at, was creating his own language and his own slogans and things like that. Mike Tongour, you worked directly for Al as his chief of staff and his chief counsel there.
Tell us about the things that you really recall from your time there, and the way that Al stood, not only head and shoulders above everybody physically, but his words and his actions that made you realize what an amazing, amazing human being.
Mike Tongour:
Well, I was, I was honored that he took a little bit extra time to interview with a South Carolinian who'd had some experience in the Senate, but I was interviewing for a position in his role as Republican whip of the Senate, more of a national role to help him with counting votes and help him with providing information to other senators.
But, you know, a normal person probably wouldn't have taken the extra time to see something in me, to give me that particular chance. And what he did with everybody, he’d take a little bit extra time. Everything wasn't transactional to him. He led with a sense of humor. He led with a huge heart. He led with the idea that, he really wanted to be your friend.
And of course, there's always a time for transactions. There's always a time to be transactional. But if you establish that credibility, if you establish that predicate, that this is someone that I genuinely like, this is someone that I genuinely trust, this is someone that I genuinely can work with, because he seems to care about me.
He seemed to be interested in my family, what I liked, my hobbies, my interests, what kind of wine I drink, whatever. He categorized that with everybody, and, and, and that meant a lot. So when it came down to times when he had to work with Democrats or Republicans, they basically had a lot of good will generated for him, and it made his job so much easier to accomplish great things.
I mean, I wrote in another area where a Senate Leader years later said, ‘I didn't come here to be popular. I didn't come here to be liked.’ Well, the truth is, if you are popular and if you are liked, the likelihood is that you're going to accomplish a lot of things, and you're going to get more things done than the person that isn't very well liked.
But anyway, I say all that and talking about Simpson-isms, I mean, people would ask me, what do I do for Simpson? What are the details of my job? I say I'm a key advisor to a guy who doesn't take my key advice.
I was just going through some old files, and sometimes I thought that he was being too harsh. He liked to answer every letter to the Casper Star that he felt had maligned him. And he would write the longest letters and things like that. And I would say, Al, I'm not sure that the tone here is really what you want to convey.
And I have a letter like that I went through the whole processes, you know, clearly the guy misunderstood what you said. I think he took what you said out of context. You're really hard to follow. You speak like you think people are following everything that you've said, and they're not. They're just picking up little moments of time. So it's really hard, and I think you should, you know, change this letter and change this tone.
And at the bottom he says, Mike, you're absolutely right. But I'm 62 years old, and I'm not going to change. So that was it. I tried my best.
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Wendy Corr:
...
And Rob Wallace, you have spoken about your time with Malcolm Wallop and how your group of people, the people that worked for Malcolm Wallop, were so welcomed at Al and Ann's house. Tell us about your early years as part of the Simpson family.
Rob Wallace:
That's correct, Wendy. Back in ‘76 I was a young volunteer on Malcolm Wallop's first Senate campaign, and back then, it was considered almost an impossible task. Nobody thought he could win, which is sometimes tough on the morale of the staff when you hear that throughout the state.
And it was back at a time - we take so much for granted now, like a cell phone. We used to campaign back in ‘76, we had to plot out where the phone booths were, where we could stop and make a collect call to the office so they could call us back on the watch line, so we wouldn't have to pay for the call. So communications were somewhat complicated.
But we all wanted to have the northwestern Wyoming gig, because that meant we got to come to a sanctuary, coming through Cody to see Al and Ann Simpson. They would buoy our spirits. They would tell us that this is winnable. They would feed us and just basically, you know, nurture the team and put us back on the road.
So it was a very fun way to campaign, when you knew that the Simpson household was somehow on your agenda during a during a trip out.
Mike Tongour:
One of the things - I'm just remembering so much in these last few days - and it didn't matter, you know, if you were at their dinner table and you were a guest. That was a family tradition, and I know you didn't, you didn't ask me here to sing, but everyone would hold hands, and they would sing this old song. And it was like, ‘The more we get together, the happier we’ll be, because your friends are my friends.’
And you know it sounded, the first time you heard it, ‘Oh my gosh. What am I getting myself into?’ But you know, the truth is, it tells you everything you need to know about Al Simpson, because basically, I mean, he had a lot of love in his heart, but huge his family has the same DNA, and they're very warm people.
And I remember even when my kids, who you know, they were just there, and they didn't know this famous person very well, but they would say, now, what did you do this summer? And what do you want to do next in your schooling, and things like that. They would take the time to ask these kind of questions and go around the table anyway.
It was just, it was just the kind of warmth that was manifested, not only at his dinner table but also in the Senate.
Wendy Corr:
...
I want to move over here to Erskine Bowles, because Erskine, your interaction with Al was started in Washington, DC, where so many of these others, these all happened. I mean, Mike Tongour, he first ran across him in DC, but Erskine, that's where you ran across him as well. Tell me about your first interactions with Al Simpson.
Erskine Bowles:
Well, as I told you, before we started, I have a million Al Simpson stories. I traveled to city after city after city around the country with Al, and I heard them all, and I heard them over and over and over again, and I love every one of them. And I remember at President Bush's funeral, the stories he told were the same ones he told on the road.
He was extraordinary. I met him in Washington when he was in the Senate, and I was working in the Clinton administration, and my job was to negotiate what became the first balanced budget agreement in a generation.
And Pete, you may remember, when we’d go on the talk shows, people thought, you know, you guys have no chance, none. You'll never get a vote for it, this thing doesn't make any sense. Governor, you probably heard it when you were over in Ireland.
But, you know, we stuck with it, and we did end up getting a positive vote. We got 75% of the Democrats in both the House and the Senate to vote yes, and 75% of the Republicans in both the House and Senate to vote yes.
It was an amazing experience. We did end up balancing the budget and creating a surplus for four straight years, and the biggest fiscal concern that people had after that was, were we going to pay off all the Treasury debt and there'd be nothing to mark other debt against?
As Al would say, that was a high class problem, and I spent, I spent most of my time with Al, some I guess, 10, 15, years after that, when President Obama asked us to co chair what was then called the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, and I had a chance to work with Al again.
And I'd already developed trust in him. And trust is the corner of a realm. And but I did think, gosh, when I got with him, I thought, I have finally found my crazy uncle in the attic, you know?
...
But you know, over a long period of time, talking to really hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people on our commission work, he went from that crazy uncle in the attic to somebody I truly loved, like family.
I loved everything about him. I loved his sincerity, his authenticity, he was real. There was no pretense. He disarmed everybody he talked to, because he just didn't have - and his humanity and his humor just just disarmed you we were when we went to speak, you know. And we really did speak to as many as 50,000 people at a time, just the two of us trying to convince people that this made sense to be fiscally responsible.
...
And I always felt at the end of every single one of these visits, whether it was people from the far left of a far right or just a whole group of people, we got us, as Al said, a standing ovation, and that's mostly true.
But I figured they liked us because they saw a Republican and Democrat who truly liked each other, and I felt they were desperate for that, and they liked the fact that we told them the truth. And when you do that, you know people will trust you, and with trust, you can develop a common set of facts, and when you trust in a common set of facts, you can get almost anything accomplished.
Pete Williams:
Well, there's a real hunger for that now, Erskine And, you know, I think one of Al's hallmarks was his bipartisanship, because remember, one of his close friends in the Senate was Ted Kennedy. They did, as you may remember, Wendy, a radio show together. Maybe Mike Tongour wrote many of those scripts, I don't know.
But he had a hidden role in the institution that I covered for 29 years, the Supreme Court, because when there was a vacancy on the court, and there was a nomination of Stephen Breyer, the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, then was Jesse Helms, and he said, ‘Nope.’ He said, ‘The gate is closed. It's too late in the year, the gate is closed. We are not taking any more nominations.’
So Al, according to Steve Breyer, and a story confirmed later by Al, Senator Simpson, went to Jesse and said, ‘You know, we worked on the Judiciary Committee with Stephen Breyer. He was staff director. He was a counsel. We like him. He's a person of great credibility, and we really should consider his nomination.’
And Jesse said, ‘Okay, we open the gate, just a little.’ Stephen Breyer got confirmed to the US Supreme Court, and he was forever grateful to Al Simpson.
Wendy Corr:
That is fantastic. I was going to actually go to you Pete, because I want to ask you about some of the things that Erskine said, about Al's humanity, about him, and the no-BS, as it were. How did that play with the journalists? Because journalists are used to politician-speak. How did that play with journalists?
Pete Williams:
In a somewhat mixed way. Al had a somewhat mixed reputation with journalists. Remember, he wrote a book called ‘Right in the old Gazoo,” talking about his run-ins with journalists. He, as Mike's pointed out so eloquently, he never, he never resisted the chance to pick a fight with somebody who he felt had done him wrong or misquoted him, or or was in any way contrary to what actually had happened.
He took his coat off to everybody. Whoever crossed him. It didn't always make him friends, but I'll give you one example. He got in a terrible tussle with Nina Totenberg of National Public Radio during the Anita Hill hearings, and he called her some names, and she gave it back, and they ended up becoming best of friends.
Nina, who lives just a couple of blocks away from me, was my constant seat mate at the Supreme Court during many years, and you could never hear higher praise for Al Simpson than her. So none of it was ever permanent or heart felt or deeply felt. It was as Mike said, Al just said he felt he just had to say things as they popped into his head, and he would sometimes later regret it, and oftentimes end up being great friends.
Wendy Corr:
Which is absolutely one of the things that defined Al, is that, love him for what he said, or dislike what he said. You had to respect him for that.
I want to refer to another thing that Erskine mentioned, which was the funeral for George H W Bush and how Al Simpson gave the eulogy for that. Rob Wallace, you wrote a guest column for Cowboy State Daily, and you talked about that time that - I think it was - Rob, wasn't it your column that you talked about that time when Al was giving the eulogy and he cracked all of the former presidents up? That's your story to tell. You've got to tell that story.
Rob Wallace:
Well, it sounds like Erskine was at this ceremony, but when we visited Al, Mike and Erskine, and I had had the good fortune to see Al about two weeks ago, and I was struck by a picture that was hanging in his room, which was at that funeral for George Bush.
This was about, 2018, Erskine, and the picture was taken from behind Al looking out over a packed National Cathedral in Washington, and there in the front row were five presidents, President Bush, Carter, Clinton, Trump and Obama, looking at Al and laughing hysterically about something he had just said to the audience, remembering his friend George HW Bush.
It struck me that it was a perfect image to me, of what Al and what his life is about.
Erskine Bowles:
It was amazing, as we traveled around the country, he would call President Bush too. And when he was really failing, and he'd tell him a joke, and President Bush would just, you know, just bend over laughing, and President Bush would say, ‘Well, I got one for you, too.’ And they would go back and forth. And, you know, the love between those two was easy to feel.
Mike Sullivan:
I was reminded, prompted by Erskine's comments, as I thought only those of us who traveled the Dusty Trails of Wyoming heard Al's jokes over and over again, but one of, I think he had a unique - he was unique. He's a man for all seasons, camouflaged well by his humor. But he had this high, huge intellect.
But one of the things that most interests me is, he was the only person I've ever known that had three steps in his humor, at least in Wyoming.
Because of what Erskine says about hearing them over and over, he would start to tell a joke, and he'd raise that crooked finger of his and everybody would laugh, because they knew there was a joke coming.
And then he would get a little bit into it, and they'd laugh again because they knew which joke it was. And then the third step was he'd finish the joke, and they'd just be bent over, but they'd heard it 20 times - but he was, he was just capable, and it was part of the trust, it was part of the humor. He was capable of entertaining anyone. It didn't matter. He was just unique in that respect.
Wendy Corr:
You bet. Mike Tongour, how often did you have to run interference for something that Al would say, as his chief of staff, how often did you have to get in between him and a constituent?
Pete Williams:
By which she means, how many times a day, Mike?
Mike Tongour:
The thing is that I think people focus on, you know, so I mean, it's - he did have this prickly side, certainly. But the truth is that, listen to what he says that he wants on his epitaph. ‘He was a friend to his friends.’
And to the extent that he had a prickly side, let's take his best friend, George Bush, to the extent that he got into trouble with Anita Hill and everything else. He was being the team player, I think to a large extent. Playing basketball at the University of Wyoming had a major influence on him. Al liked being part of a team, and he was a loyal member of a team. And when he was on your team, you didn't attack one of his team members.
And that sometimes, you know, got him into more trouble because he felt sometimes that he had to, he had to almost compensate too much as the Republican whip in being and say, you know, and be more on the attack sometimes than was absolutely necessary.
But you know, for me, it was like I would see it was like spilling hot water on a sidewalk in the summertime. I mean, it just evaporates quickly, because at his core, he would start feeling guilty about what he had said. And Ann was a wonderful influence on all of that as well, and he would think about that, and then he would basically say, that's not me.
He wouldn't say that to the person, but he would manifest that to someone like Nina Totenberg, and he would basically, you know, try to do whatever he could to get back to those core values of being loving and a good friend and developing and nurturing a positive, you know, relationship.
So anyway, the point was, is there were a lot of times when, you know, he was prickly, but it was not so difficult to try to work with him and bring him back, so long as his real Chief of Staff was Ann Simpson.
Pete Williams:
And Wendy, I think one thing, to use a Wyoming expression, the thing that you have to say about Al is that he ‘bred true,’ because, you know, a lot of his personality traits and his intellect and sense of humor came from his father, Milward, who was also senator and governor in Wyoming.
And, of course, you can also see that in Pete, in Al's brother Pete, who is equally smart and has a great sense of humor. And it was a real family gift from their father.
Wendy Corr:
It was again, brother Pete, brother Al. Those two were quite the pair, both growing up, and then as they got older, of course, they still continued to go around and truly entertain people. I mean, it was the Pete and Al show. How many times did they go to the University of Wyoming, or were they on Wyoming PBS or things like that, where they actually would sit there and tell stories and talk about their times as the Simpson brothers?Two Wyoming treasures for sure.
I want to take just a moment and read something from Don Hardy.
“He was my mentor, boss, confidant, father, brother, guidance counselor and my cherished friend of 67 years. He was an inspiration to people across our country, and he was valued by world leaders.
“I recently visited him. The end was near, but when I said, I love you, Al, his eyes sparkled. Al Simpson was the hardest working man I ever knew. He was demanding and exacting of himself and those who worked with and for him. He made others more confident and competent. He helped us rise as employees and as human beings. He led by example, outworking his entire staff.
“Al once told me what he wanted etched on his headstone. He smiled and said, ‘You would have wanted him on your side.’”
And Don says, “Thank God he was on my side.” And I think that those of us who knew him, especially those of you who worked with him and were colleagues of him, would absolutely be in tune with what Don wrote there.
Pete Williams:
Yeah, very nice. And Don and I first met at at the late lamented KATI Radio in Casper, and worked together at KTWO where Don was the weather man, ‘Citizen Don Hardy,’ when he was on the radio. And then, of course, he went to work for Al in Washington. And it was, it was a marriage that was destined to work.
Wendy Corr:
I've been so privileged to be able to communicate with Don in recent months. I'm trying to get him on the podcast as well, but Don was, of course - you and Don worked together, Mike, and as both staff members for Al, you would have had the same experience - outworking his entire staff.
You did say something to that effect about how he just would bring work home. What was your experience with that, with being an employee of his in that way?
Mike Tongour:
Just because he brought a lot of work home, and just because he worked very hard didn't necessarily mean he was that efficient. He would keep papers forever. You would say, when it came to getting a photograph and a picture with him in it, I would say that ‘you have a lifetime guarantee.’
And people would say, ‘What do you mean a lifetime guarantee?’ I said, ‘Sometime in your lifetime, you'll get this picture back, but it's going to be a long time.’ Because if you ever went down to his basement or in his office, things were just stacked up, and he just labored over every word. And it was effective, but not particularly efficient.
But I wanted to, I wanted to show you something. And I don't know if you can see this, but I was looking at a 35 year old magazine, and it's called ‘Dossier’ in Washington, and at the bottom of it, it says, ‘Alan Simpson Bares All: a candid conversation with the most popular man in the Senate.’
And I just thought that was kind of interesting, that that's what people were talking about from this, as Rob says, this kid from Cody, Wyoming, who came there and was considered to be, you know, the most popular person in the Senate. And we've talked about that, but this was just sort of, this is what people believed. This was the conventional wisdom about Al. And I thought that was kind of an interesting thing.
Rob Wallace:
I was struck when Pete talked earlier about the 78.3% victory that he had in 1982, I somehow remember a conversation that maybe Mike and Don Hardy and I had after that with Al, but he was trying to figure out what was wrong with the other 21.7%? Where were they and how can we get to them next time?
Wendy Corr:
Very, very true. I want to talk about his politics, just for a few minutes, about the different things that he stood for. Erskine, of course, you and Al worked so hard on fiscal responsibility, and that was such a focus of his, especially after he left the Senate. And for those of you who worked with him, who followed his career - What were the things that really stuck out to you about his politics and the policies that he embraced and that he really got behind?
Pete Williams:
If I could just go first and just say that one thing about Al, that people forget is, you know, he came to Washington and just jumped right into the first issue, which was nuclear energy and what to do with nuclear waste.
He was on nobody's list of experts on that subject, and would freely admit he knew next to nothing about it. But he established himself as he did, become one of the Senate's real experts on that issue. He worked very hard from the moment he got there, and as Rob said in his column for Cowboy State Daily, you know, and I'll just tee it up and give it to him there, he showed real courage in jumping into issues that were not destined to make him popular.
Rob Wallace:
I think when you talk about consequential things that Al did, I'm going to switch a little bit, Pete, when he came into the Senate in 1978 there was a great debate going on about the acid rain and what to do about coal fired power plants emitting so2, sulfur dioxide.
And there was an effort underway to compromise Wyoming's ability to develop their emerging Surface Mining, surface mines in the Powder River Basin. But Al got to work through force of personality and was able to, in the clean air act of 1990, preserve Wyoming's ability to sell coal to the market without, you know, economically killing aftermarket equipment.
And people talk about, you know, bipartisanship in a not too complimentary way right now, but had it not been for Al Simpson and his bipartisan capabilities, Wyoming's coal industry would look a lot different today than it did, thanks to his bipartisanship work.
So that's one that gets lost in the national and international conversation, but boy, Wyoming owes him a lot for a pretty stable economy for some 30 years, and that was totally Al Simpson and his bipartisan skills.
Erskine Bowles:
I can't tell you the number of times I heard Al say to some younger person who was trying to figure out how to get something done in Washington, he said, you know, if you can't compromise without compromising your principles, you better never be a lawyer, you better never be a politician. And for God's sake, you better never get married.
Pete Williams:
He did take on, you know, what I was talking about earlier. So some things that were not popular is, in a kind of an early version of his work with Erskine Bowles, he teamed up with a congressman from New York, Romano Mazzoli, New York or New Jersey, Mike, I'm not sure.
But anyway, they sponsored the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration bill.
Mike Tongour:
It was Kentucky.
Pete Williams:
I knew it was one of those eastern states.
It was the first real bipartisan effort to do something about illegal immigration. And he also took on the retired lobby, batting heads with AARP, and then also with veterans groups, saying that too many veterans benefits were going to vets who never actually saw any combat or actually had service connected disabilities. This brought a storm of hate mail for him, but he stood by his principles.
And you know, I think that's one of the things you have to say about Al Simpson, in addition to, as Erskine said, his ability to compromise and work out things that benefit Wyoming, what Rob was pointing out, it was also his courage and his willingness to take on tough issues.
Mike Tongour:
One of the things that I think is so endearing about Al is he learned a lot from practicing law. He learned a lot about life, and he had a compassion for other people. He himself had gotten into trouble in his life. He always believed in redemption. He wanted to give people a second chance.
There was legislation that he sponsored to basically, you know, to help people get a second chance if they've been convicted of some sort of non violent offense. You know, I know that, you know, the issue of choice is a controversial one, but, you know, he met and counseled with a lot of women, and he felt very strongly about this issue, and he felt that it was something that he was going to stick to his guns on, just like his father before him stuck to his guns on the death penalty issue.
I think he saw that in his father, that these certain principles are very important, and certain people who are like marginalized in society, whether it was for civil rights. I mean, he took a lead in various civil rights related issues as well. And the point is, is that those were manifestations of a combination of his big heart and a lot of world experience, and sometimes they want the most popular things.
Wendy Corr:
That's right, that's right. I want to, kind of, sadly, we have to wrap up a little bit here, but I want to read something real quickly that long time Cody Enterprise publisher Bruce McCormack shared with me, to share with all of you, which, I’d like to lead this into just closing remarks from each of you.
But one of the things that that Bruce said is,
“The hundreds of thousands of people who loved and respected Al, they could do well and could pay ongoing tribute to him by working hard to emulate some of the key tenets by which al lived his long life: bipartisanship, compromise, open mindedness, patience and love and a measure of genuine respect for the different beliefs of other people.
“So as we all endeavor to go forward without Al, let's be better citizens by stopping to ask ourselves at important moments, what would Al do?”
And I think that that is something that we can all take with us from here, with the loss of Al, the person, we can take that spirit of his and incorporate it into our lives.
Mike Sullivan, just final thoughts about what we can do now to honor Al going forward?
Mike Sullivan:
Well, I think Bruce just said it eloquently, and I don't know how you'd improve upon that. The only thought that comes to my mind that we haven't touched on is that Al never quit. He got out of politics, but then got into bed with Erskine and talked about tough issues. Didn't bother him a bit.
And he continued right up to the end, raising money for worthy causes, helping the university. He struggled, but got to the dedication of the new building at the University in his honor, and he went to the Ucross Foundation to help them raise money. He was still raising money and being a public servant right up to the very end, and that's something we could all emulate to some degree, I think.
Wendy Corr:
Absolutely. And his work with the Heart Mountain Foundation and the Simpson Mineta library there with his lifelong friendship with Norm Mineta. So, very good.
Mike Sullivan:
Buffalo Bill historic center, he continued. He continued and continued and continued.
Wendy Corr:
Yes, he did. Mike Tongour, your final thoughts on how we can honor Al going forward, as we face a world without Al Simpson.
Mike Tongour:
Two quick points before that - his last full year in the Senate was 30 years ago. I don't think there's anybody in the history of the Senate that was still so sought after from media, from other policy makers, than Al Simpson was 30 years after he left the Senate.
He was a renaissance man. He was a veteran. He was a lover of the arts, music, books, sports. He had a great zest for life. We've talked about his big heart, but I've got my stories about my mother, and I bet all of you probably can think of stories like this about your mothers as well. Sometimes they always have big hearts, and maybe they don't know about politics.
But my mother, when I first started working for Al, asked me a question, which I thought was simplistic, but in reality, it was the essence. It was everything. She says, ‘Is he a good man?’ And I said, you know, somewhat dismissively, you know, ‘Yes, of course, he's a good man.’
But the point is, is that after 35 years of getting to know him, what I probably should have said to my mother is, ‘He's the very best.’
Wendy Corr:
Yes, absolutely. Rob Wallace, your thoughts on how best to honor Al.
Rob Wallace:
You know, I always thought that, you think a lot about somebody when you know they're, you know, ill. And you know, he, he moved through life with joy and purpose and humor. It is fine about everything he did and and you look at his life, he had it all.
He had a 70 year marriage to a woman he met at the University of Wyoming that grew up in Greybull. He was raised in Cody, passed away in Cody, three remarkable children, a reputation that earned him full page obituaries in the New York Times and The Washington Post.
And I think it was a complete life that he lived, and what a privilege it was to play a little part in being in able to share that with him.
Wendy Corr:
Absolutely. Erskine Bowles, your thoughts on your friend, your friend, Al Simpson, of many, many years.
Erskine Bowles:
I've never had a friend like Al. I remember one time, lots of times, you know, before I knew he was a renaissance man, he was we would go to a city, and, you know, Al was always talking about art. I said, How does this cowboy know anything about art? And he knew more than anybody I'd ever been around. And he'd go to a museum and drag me along, and we would go to one after another.
And a couple of times we had to go our separate ways, and I'd go to a town that had a great museum, and Al would call me up and said, Well, how was your museum? I said, ‘Al, I didn't go.’ He said, ‘You love museums.’ I said, ‘No. Al, I never liked going to museums at all. What I loved was being with you,’ and that was true.
Al taught me to put all your pretenses aside. Be yourself, tell the truth, fight for what you believe, and don't forget you can compromise without compromising your principles, and I'll never forget it. I truly did love him like family.
One of the last things I'll just say is when, when we were in some restaurant after a long day of doing our dog and pony show three times, we were having dinner, and I got the staff to bring out a birthday cake for him. I told him it was Al's 108th birthday, and they had to get 108 candles and wish him a happy birthday, he was my dad.
And they’d come down, and they said, ‘Happy Birthday.’ He said, ‘It’s not my birthday.’ They said, ‘Your son said it's your birthday.’ He said, ‘He ain't my son. He's a son of a bitch, is what he is.’
But I loved him, and I will treasure the times I spent with him beyond anything else I've ever done, he was the best.
Wendy Corr:
Yes, yes. Pete Williams, we're going to round it out here with you. I want to ask you two questions. First, I want to have you say, what did you learned from Al, and what you'll take from Al? But also, will we see another politician like Al Simpson, in your opinion?
Pete Williams:
I think that would be pretty much impossible. He was a tough act to follow - all the characteristics that we've talked about, honesty, integrity, sense of humor, height. It's hard to think that all those ingredients are going to come together again.
I would just say two things. One is that it's obvious from the stories you've heard today that Al had a gift of making everybody feel that their relationship with him was somehow very special, and that's something that every one of us treasures. Everybody on this panel has a reason to claim that, but he just made everybody feel like, you know, I'm Al’s special - the other guys, yeah, they know him, but I'm Al’s special friend. And he made people feel that way.
I would say this, though, how do you honor his legacy? You know, the other four people that you have on this panel today are the kind of person that Al Simpson represented. They're all people of integrity and honesty who have served their country well and continue to do so.
And I'm just pleased to be with them, because they're exemplary citizens, and exemplary citizens of America and of Wyoming in their own states, and there are still people out there trying to do the right thing. And so the way to honor All Simpson is to encourage and honor those people who are carrying on in his tradition.
Wendy Corr:
Pete, that is perfect. Thank you, and thank all of you who have been on this panel today for sharing your thoughts and your stories and your sentiments for this remarkable man who we were all so privileged to know.
For those of us who are now facing this world without Al Simpson, we are grateful for the time that we had with him. We're grateful for the mark that he made on our state, on our nation and on each of us personally.
So thank you for tuning into this very, very special edition of the Roundup today. Pete Williams, Erskine Bowles, Rob Wallace, Mike Tongour, Governor Mike Sullivan, thank you for being here today, and let's do what Al would want us to do - which is, be kind, be funny, see the lightness in the world and yet, see the good in all the people that we meet.
Have a wonderful week, folks.
