Wendy Corr:
Well, hey there, folks, welcome to The Roundup. I'm your host, Wendy Corr. And our job here at Cowboy State Daily, and particularly at The Roundup, is to highlight and focus on really interesting people in the Cowboy State.
I am so remiss in the fact that I have not read our guest today, I have not read his books, but I vow to remedy that as soon as we are off of this recording, because Sam Lightner has written and experienced more in his lifetime than most of us could even dream of.
And I am so pleased to have Sam Lightner as the guest on The Roundup today. He's been suggested by several people to say, Hey, have you gotten Sam Lightner on the podcast yet? We're making sure that we get Sam on the podcast right now.
So Sam Lightner, direct from Lander Wyoming, it is so good to have you on the podcast today, Sam! Welcome.
Sam Lightner:
That's really good to be here. That was, that was quite a, quite an opening for me there. So a lot to live up to already.
Wendy Corr:
Well, you already have, oh my gosh! Again, I feel so bad because I've not read your work, but I have read enough about your work to know that the experiences that you've had are experiences that are very rare for somebody who grew up in Wyoming, a Wyoming native who grew up here.
But you have gone out and you've experienced the world, one mountain at a time. And I really think that that's a perfect way to say that, because that's how you began your career and your professional journey. Is that valid?
Sam Lightner:
Yeah, I went on a climbing trip with my friend Mark Newcomb. He's actually a county commissioner over in Jackson now, and he and I had started climbing together when we were kids, we went to elementary, junior high and high school together.
And he was in Asia on a school program, and we decided to meet and go to southern Thailand to climb some rocks we'd seen pictures of, and that's what we went and did.
And I had such an amazing trip, that I got on the airplane, and this was at the start of the first Gulf War, and this is pretty much pre computers, pre laptop computers, for the most part. I sat down with a notebook and just wrote the story of what had just happened on this three week trip, and sure enough, a magazine wanted to pick it up.
And I that's how I became a writer. But if I hadn't been on this climbing trip first, I wouldn't have been inspired to pick up the pen and paper.
Wendy Corr:
And so you, you did you deliberately market your story then to magazines? Is that what you started out doing?
Sam Lightner:
Yeah, I sent it to the climbing magazines, and they liked it. They wanted better photos, so I went back the next year and got more photography done and everything. But yeah, that was basically the launch, and then the rest is history.
Wendy Corr:
And between 9 and 13 books later, here you are, depending on how you count them, here you are. You are a successful author. You've published. You've gone now to self publishing, is that correct?
Sam Lightner:
Yeah, my agent passed away in 2013 and I am trying to get a new agent. The industry's difficult. I'm still, I'm open to it, but it's difficult to. They want you to have 20,000 Instagram followers and stuff like that. Stuff I don't do.
I write, I don't do a lot of promo stuff, and I'm not real good with the new media stuff, and they all kind of expect that, probably because they're not real good at it either.
And thus, yeah, I haven't gotten another agent. So I just said, you know, I know how this stuff works, and there's Amazon now, and most of what I write is regional. So let's just, I'll just publish it myself, but the first, first majority of books were done through big name publishers.
Wendy Corr:
Well, you say that your books are regional, but let's clarify that the regional-ness of them aren't limited to Wyoming, because the regions that you write about - yes, you've got some Wyoming history books, which I think are fantastic. I think it's fabulous that you're highlighting the history of Wyoming. You've got some local tour and travel books out there as well.
But like you mentioned, your very first book, your very first writing was clear over in Southeast Asia. And so I guess that's regional to Southeast Asia.
Sam Lightner:
Yeah, that book was also, that was one of the ones that was done by a national, as a Random House publication. So they did a full national book tour with me. And, you know, they did all that marketing stuff.
And again, that was, that was 1999-2000, it was - actually, it was 2000-2001, it was before you needed to have 20,000 Instagram followers and stuff. Yeah, and, and a big deal was newspaper reviews, and they knew how to get that kind of stuff so, so those books were that.
And that one in particular was done, I was a book about Borneo, and, yeah, that was done through a big publisher, but now I'm writing stuff that's set in Wyoming and is centered on Wyoming, and you've got Amazon.
So you know, when tourists want to buy the book, they go look up, hey, what's a book about Wyoming I could buy for my trip next summer. And there it is.
Wendy Corr:
There it is.
Sam Lightner:
You just don't need the big publishers as much anymore as you used to. That's not to say I wouldn't like to have one for like the current work, because they would come up with ways to promote it. But I don't have to have it.
Wendy Corr:
Well, the books, again, that you have, that you've written and that you've researched, they're obviously something that you are passionate about. Let's back up. You grew up in Jackson. That's where you started off. You left Wyoming for a very brief time just to find out, you know what, I need to get back to Wyoming.
Sam Lightner:
Yeah, I graduated from Jackson High School in ‘85 and went to college in Dallas, and I was there for an hour before I realized I had made a mistake. So I transferred back to Wyoming the following semester and was there for the next three years.
Wendy Corr:
That's great. And so you came back. You're obviously a proud UW fan, which is great. Like your shirt today, very good. So you came back where you felt like you belonged. But that's what launched you. Then from there to this, this world adventure that you found yourself on.
Sam Lightner:
Climbing is what launched me, the sport of climbing, and not just mountain rock climbing, all, all aspects of it, but climbing became sort of a - well, let's back up on that.
Climbing is, in itself, for me, a form of exploration. You do new climbs, and you find out new things on each climb. You go to a different spot, let's say, and travel is exploration. So the two kind of work really well together.
Climbing makes a good excuse to go to weird places in the world that you would have never otherwise gone to because it has some big, weird rock or mountain or something. So, yeah, I went to school at the University of Vedauwoo, pretty much, and then immediately went off on various climbing adventures after that, and lived somewhat of a professional climber life.
I worked for Jackson mountain guides in the summer times, and I I had sponsors and so forth, but that's when I went on one of these trips, the one to Southeast Asia, and somehow I became a writer. I had never intended to be a writer, but it just worked out that way.
Wendy Corr:
I understand that, and I resemble that. It's amazing what life brings you when you aren't looking for it. So your explorations then brought you to places that then you became very passionate about, because a couple of your books are about conflict in Southeast Asia, which obviously you found an affinity there. Tell us about your journey.
Sam Lightner:
Yeah, you do. You've tapped into it. It's climbing again. So in those days, pre Google Earth and pre world, the world is known about kind of thing. After that trip to Thailand, I realized I'm going back over there for a while.
The particular type of rock, karst limestone that they have there and and they have the thickest karst limestone in the world, up to almost 2000 feet thick. So you get what we call big walls, not things that you just climb. You might be on them for two days, right? You actually have that out of limestone over there.
But the biggest of those walls were in countries that were closed off to people from the United States because of the Vietnam War. We were closer to the Vietnam war than, I mean, you know, it's 1990 - we're only 15 years out. We're closer to that than we are to 9/11 right now.
So you couldn't go to Laos, and Americans when they went to Vietnam, which it was actually illegal in the United States to go to Vietnam, but you could go and you would basically have a guard around you all the time. But photographs of these big mountains, and information on these big mountains was hardly known about.
So I started reading Military Historical stuff, and not in Russian, but some of it translated from Russian sources, as well on the geography of the region, specifically along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, because that was the best referencing I had for the biggest rock faces.
You know, they're just, it's hard to imagine. If you're a 25 year old today, you probably can't imagine that could not go - the best thing you had was an encyclopedia. You could go to an encyclopedia article on Laos, four pages long, and you'd hope for one or two photographs, one of which might have a mountain in the background.
But this military stuff had information that you know, like describing the mountains from time to time. And in that, I found out about this story about a mountain called Phousi in Northern Laos, and it was a closed off to the public until 1989 I believe it was, it was a secret.
But the United States put a base on top of this mountain to do air traffic control work over North Vietnam. And then there's a battle to take over the base. And that's what the book was about, was this base, but it was a big secret, but I found out about it learning about rock faces. So in in Laos, again, climbing.
Wendy Corr:
Obviously, I mean the climbing started it, but you obviously found a passion for that story and felt this story that needs to be told.
Sam Lightner:
It's a compelling story. You know, these guys are basically flown to within 15 miles, 130 miles, of the enemy's capital, set on top of this mountain that no one thinks anyone can climb to get up there. They've got special forces from Thailand protecting them, and lo and behold, the Vietnamese trained some guys to climb the mountain and take out the base.
But, yeah, it's a compelling story, and it's amazing that it hasn't been made into a movie though. You know, maybe it wouldn't, not necessarily a happy ending.
Wendy Corr:
Well, and and I've noticed that, though about some of the things, when I got on your website, and I noticed you have recommendations for the books to read if people are interested in some of these stories. You have recommendations for movies people should watch, if they're again interested in the books that you've written on the subject of conflict in Southeast Asia.
And they don't have happy endings, because that was not a happy ending kind of place.
Sam Lightner:
It's a happy ending if you were Vietnamese, okay, but if you were an American, like, okay, so everybody died and we lost. But that's war stuff. You know, there's generally a winner and a loser, and a lot of losers in the losing part.
And it's, it's harsh. So you know, it's not a happy ending, but it's also not necessarily a sad ending. It's just history.
Wendy Corr:
It's a compelling story, s history is. History is made up of all of these stories, whether the outcome. When did you decide, ‘okay, so I've written about climbing, and I've written this story. Well, now let me take this back home to Wyoming, and let's write some stuff that's local here in my home state.’
Sam Lightner:
So I studied history at Wyoming, and we all had to read Larson's history of Wyoming. I think every - when I was there, I think every student at Wyoming had to read it. I think you all were required to take a Wyoming history class. And it is an incredibly detailed history book, but it is written in the old style of history books that make people go, I don't like history. It's boring.
So what I decided I was going to do was write a book of 10, 12, 15 stories out of Wyoming history, and that book would have been a historical compilation of these stories. But while I was doing it, I realized, within just a couple of the stories, wait, this all just links together. So Well, no, I'm going to focus on some cool stories from Wyoming history, but I'm going to write a Wyoming history book.
So I ended up writing focused on particular things, but, you know, the things that are compelling stories, but it's a general history of Wyoming, and that's how I did it. Originally it was just going to be short stories of historical horse short stories. But, yeah.
Wendy Corr:
Wow, that's fantastic. I think that's the book I need to start with, because I did have to take the Wyoming history class in college, but I was one of those weird ones that I actually majored in history after that, because to me, they are the stories. They are the stories. And those stories are what make Wyoming so unique, and what makes people who live here so proud to live here, because we've got such a colorful history in our state.
Now, you've also taken that talent for writing and you've made it very modern, because you've got a couple of guide books that you have written, roadside tour books, basically. So you've got one that's about Jackson, you've also got one that's not in Wyoming, that's in Moab.
Tell us about taking those travel guides and taking that track for your writing.
Sam Lightner:
I always loved history, and for climbing, I moved to Moab for a number of years. And as soon as I got there, I was like, wow, I'd really like to learn the history of Moab better. So I started studying Moab history in the local library and meeting with older folks who knew stories from the past and so forth.
And I was like, wow, this is really cool. I'll just, you know what? I think I'll try and write a lot of this stuff down and make a book out of it. And the idea came, you know, because in Moab, like much of Wyoming, everything is pretty remote. It's either right next to the road, or you could walk for two hours in one direction and never cross another road, right?
So the roads became the focus, and what you could see from the roads. So it was, it was a roadside history, and it followed the highways, kind of if you went in a circle around Moab, about 100 miles out, that's as far out as it would reach, but it would tell you what you were looking at based on your mileage marker from the center of Moab.
And then I was like, wow, that book. Everybody likes that book. I'll just have to do that about Jackson, because I already know a bunch of that stuff. So I did one on Jackson as well. I had ideas to do them for all of the state of Wyoming.
And then I met a woman named Story Clark out of Jackson, who has a company called TravelStorys, and they basically do what I did, only it's an audio book that plays off your phone and it plays off GPS. So I ended up writing Interstate 80, the history as you drive from one side or the other.
And it plays through your phone, and when you get to a certain distance from, say, Cheyenne, it starts giving you the history of Cheyenne, and then the Lincoln monument up at Vedauwoo, and then, you know, on the top of Happy Jack. And it relays all this information to you automatically.
So I did that one, which is essentially its own book, but it's again, the short stories as you're driving I-80. And then I did one that goes from Rawlins to Moran, so 287. And the idea was I would eventually do a number of them, the Yellowstone Highway, so going essentially from Rapid City to West Yellowstone and perhaps going Rock Springs to Jackson, but haven't gotten to that yet.
Wendy Corr:
Those are projects to be had next. Those are projects to be had in future. Those are great. Please make sure that we get the links to those. I'll include those in the story notes, so that people who are driving those know that this is something that they can do if they genuinely want to learn more about the state that they live in.
Sam Lightner:
It's actually, it's a really cool thing in that you, at least for me, I like listening to podcasts or listening to books on tape when I'm driving, and all of us in Wyoming have to cover big distances. I mean, you got to drive an hour and a half just to get to the bathroom.
So, we're used to doing these drives, and to have it set up so that it works off GPS, and it just automatically comes on, and there it is. It just starts telling you what you're looking at, or what you're not looking at, but what used to be there.
Wendy Corr:
Yeah, that's fabulous. That's great. Yes, we definitely want the links to that. That'd be great. You've also written stories about Native Americans in Wyoming. And is it your most recent book that's about Chief Washakie?
Sam Lightner:
It is. So when I was doing the Wyoming history book, I was really intrigued by the geopolitical gamesmanship that was going on, that was the fur industry. A lot of people didn't realize this.
But, you know, the British still had designs on western North America,. What we would refer to as Oregon Territory. But they called it British Columbia territory. Whilst we had the whole Manifest Destiny idea of, No, we're going to be all the way to the coast. And of course, there were people already living there in between.
And the fur industry became the Hudson's Bay Company. Was a British company, right? There was also a French company. There were a couple of British companies. They then for Hudson's Bay, took them over.
But then there was American Fur Company and the Rocky Mountain Fur Company, and they were somewhat sanctioned by the various administrations in Washington to push an American agenda in the region, whilst the Hudson's Bay Company was pushing a British first agenda to hopefully hold on to those most western territories.
And I found that a really intriguing story, and I started to work on the idea of a book about that. And obviously Native Americans were going to come in big in that story. And the one who stood out through the whole story was Washakie and the Eastern Shoshone, the Shoshone.
But then the Eastern Shoshone, he essentially made them the Eastern Shoshone. They were disbanded. They were just a bunch of separate groups, and he brought them together as a group and managed to get an Eastern Shoshone reservation.
But the book was going to be a general book about that so called Great Game of the early 19th century that was being played out in the future Western US. And what it became was a book about Washakie, because he dominates the story. He's just such an amazing character. He did so many things in his life and pulled off stuff that you, just like, how could he see that.
Almost like Dune, Muad’dib, seeing, there's a way through everything, he could see it. And he was a statesman. He figured out how to play off the various groups against each other. He figured out who was going to be the dominant group and who was going to be the weaker group, and how to take the strongest position in that.
And the book, again, it started as one thing, but what it became was a story about Washakie’s life, which, just so happens, also spanned all of the 19th century. So he was born, probably in 1798 - his grave marker says 1804 - but much of his family believes 1798, I believe 1798. And we know he died, in fact, died in February of 1900.
So his life spanned the whole period that I wanted to write. It was like, well, this book's going to be about Washakie and the people who came and went in his life and how that worked out.
Wendy Corr:
That's fantastic. Now real quickly, where can we find your books? Some of them are in bookstores, but a lot of them are on Amazon. Tell us about that.
Sam Lightner:
Okay, so a lot of them are, a lot of these books are now only pretty much available on Amazon. The Wyoming history book is generally available in bookstores across the state. And the bookstores are starting to pick up, because the Washakie book, it, it's called “In the Valley of the Warm Winds,” that only just came out right before Christmas.
So everybody's been busy. It's just starting to be picked up. But there are local bookstores in Wyoming that have it. But the easiest way is usually Amazon, but go into your local bookstore and ask for it, and they'll order it. So they can get in touch with me through my website.
Wendy Corr:
That's fantastic. Very good. I wanted to link back here before we're done, because we're getting close to being out of time here. But I want to make sure that people know really, genuinely, how well traveled you are - because we talked about the fact that you grew up in Jackson, and yet you live in Lander now.
But you have alluded to the fact that you lived in Moab for a while. You have lived these places where climbing was best. Climbing has dictated where you have lived, and you have lived in some amazing places. Tell us about the places that you've lived and that you've spent your time.
Sam Lightner:
Oh, okay, so I grew up in Jackson. I did wind up living in Southern Thailand in the winters for a while, and summers in Jackson, I lived in Banff for five years, Alberta. Banff is sort of the world mecca of ice climbing. Cody would be probably the number two place.
Yeah, Banff is on a whole different level. It's also on a whole different level of cold. And let's see, I lived in Moab for a while, and obviously I lived in Laramie, so, but, yeah, climbing has been the impetus for this travel.
And what I essentially, you know, after that first article that I put together about this climbing trip to Thailand, magazines liked it, and at that time, you could sell, if you sold to the American magazine that got you an in with a French magazine, a Spanish magazine, a German magazine, British magazine. So he'd market it all over.
And I would then go, all right, anybody interested in an article on climbing in Zimbabwe? And if someone was, okay, trip’s paid for, off you go, and so that I was able to travel and climb and then just write articles about it. And the whole process was, it was just a gig to get going climbing, and it wound up being, you know, a big resume that I just didn't expect to work out.
Wendy Corr:
Tell me what it is about climbing that draws you, because we've got people who have watched our podcasts, who live here in Wyoming, and they feel the same way. But for those of us who aren't climbers, what is it about climbing that lights you up?
Sam Lightner:
You know, people have been trying to explain that for years, and the most famous phrase from Mallory was, you know, why do you do that? And he said, Because it's there. And I believe he said that because he was tired of being asked that question.
I'm not telling you I'm not going to answer it, because you can't quantify it. It's a really difficult thing to quantify. But if I've gotta put it down, in quantifiable - climbing is a a physical form of exploration and and rock climbing, rock climbing, that's…
It’s difficult for you as a person, like you know, there's a whole grading scale, and what's difficult for me isn't difficult for a lot of people, and what's easy for me is hard for some people. But there's a, when you start out on a hard rock climb, for you, it's almost like a chess game, and you are having to figure out how to contort your body and move your body up this wall.
But there's a ticking clock, and the ticking clock is your strength. It's going to run out. So you've got to get up there before you run out of strength, or you've got to get up there in such a way that you keep your strength through it.
So there's that physical side of it, while you're doing a form of exploration, you know, you look up from the ground and, you know, something's only 80 feet high, and you look up, you go, Huh? Well, that's this, and that's that. And I'll, I'll, I know what I'm going to find.
No, you get up there and you're like, oh my gosh, look at this crystal. Oh, wow. I didn't expect this crack to be this size. The whole time you're doing it, you are finding things out. So there's a physical side, and then there's a mental side to it, and that's really it for me, it's the exploration with physical activity.
But there's that whole sort of spiritual thing, if there's not a better word for it, where you just feel connected as well to the earth through it. So I'd say that's part of it as well.
But Mallory probably was tired of it, and he just like, I don't know, man, I'm just going to climb it because it's there. But there is. There's a whole thing to it. It's just hard to put your finger on it. For me, exploration and physical activity, while connected to the earth.
Wendy Corr:
I think that's fantastic. I think that's great. Sam, this has been such a wonderful conversation. And I think we talked about where we can find your books. We want to direct people to your website as well.
Sam Lightner:
Yep, Sam Lightner Jr. dot com. There's also a website that's linked with Amazon, they have an author's page. But, you know, enter Sam Leitner, Jr. and Amazon and stuff comes up. But again, I do believe in local bookstores. So, you know, go tell your local bookstore to get it.
Wendy Corr:
What are you working on next?
Sam Lightner:
Nothing at the moment.
Wendy Corr:
Good for you.
Sam Lightner:
My mind has been in this Washakie book for a while. His great-great grandson has approached me. His name's James Trosper, and he is the chief of the Sun Dance, handles the Sun Dance that goes on on the reservation here. And he's asked me if I'd be interested in possibly writing a book about the Sun Dance and writing down some of the Shoshone ancient stories with him.
So I may be doing that, but at the moment I'm watching football and doing things like this right now. My mind is going to clear up a little bit before and before I start working on another project, I think.
Wendy Corr:
That's fantastic. Wow, what an honor to be asked by such a high ranking member of the tribe to write down their stories. That's something we definitely want to watch for. So Sam, thank you for your time today, and thanks for telling us your story. And we look forward to, I know I look forward to reading your history books, because that's, that's my jam. So I'm looking for that.
Sam Lightner:
Thank you Wendy for having me, fun time.
Wendy Corr:
It was! Thank you Sam, and thank you folks for tuning in to The Roundup. There are so many interesting people in the cowboy state, so many, and so if you've got an idea for somebody that we need to interview and we need to highlight. Please let us know, but until next time, have a great week.
TRAVELSTORYS:
https://travelstorys.com/tours/roads-through-wyoming-us-287
https://travelstorys.com/tours/roads-through-wyoming-i-80
SAM’S OTHER HOBBY:
https://www.youtube.com/@legobylightner5950
