Wendy Corr:
Well, hey there, folks. Welcome to The Roundup. I'm your host, Wendy Corr. We have a reputation now, I can say this - I think we've got a reputation for bringing conversations to all of you with really interesting people in the Cowboy State.
And the people that we meet every week here on The Roundup cover such a wide range of interests and a wide range of specialties. And our guest today brings us a whole different direction. Kyle Pasewark - he's in Clark right now, but he started life in Cheyenne and Laramie.
But his work and the things that he has done has taken him across the country. And I'm very, very interested and very excited to introduce you all to Kyle, and talk about everything from tribal issues to political and theological and educational topics, because those are the ways in which Kyle is making his name known out there in the bigger world.
So I wanted to say thank you, Kyle. Hello, Kyle. We're so glad to have you on the round up today. How are things in Clark today?
Kyle Pasewark:
They're a little breezy, but, yeah, not a little bit of snow, but not much. But they're beautiful. I love winter as you know, so it's fine with me.
Wendy Corr:
And I love the fact that you love Clark. When we were first corresponding, I said something about, oh, you're in Clark, I hope you're doing okay out there in the wind. And he said, I love it. There's jack rabbits out here. You're looking on the bright side. Kind of guy, Kyle.
But you know, starting off in Cheyenne and Laramie, you got the weather. Started out early in your life. Tell us about your life growing up in Laramie. I really want to know how you got from Laramie, Wyoming to all of these really interesting places and interesting directions in your career.
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, I was the son of a professor at the University of Wyoming who started out actually at the State Department of Mental Health in Cheyenne. They moved approximately from Pennsylvania. But neither of them, before they came to Wyoming, had ever been west of the Mississippi.
So they kind of were kind of sober conservative folk. They took kind of a ride on Wyoming and loved it.
So I was, you know, born in Cheyenne, then my dad got a position at the University of Wyoming, moved to Laramie and grew up there, just as a Laramie kid.
Wendy Corr:
And so you, though, took your time in Laramie, and said, You know what, I don't just want to go to the University of Wyoming. It's a great school. I want to go someplace else. I want to expand my horizons. What was it in you that said, I want to seek my education elsewhere.
Kyle Pasewark:
You know, part of it was accidental. Part of it was the way we were raised. We were, you know, our parents raised us to get out of the house. That was kind of, kicking you out of the nest. You are mature kids. Now, go do what you want. I did go two years to the University of Wyoming and then transferred because they had a terrific debate program in this small college in Western Illinois, Augustana College. Transferred to that college. My wife Suzanne also went there at the same time, but we didn't know each other. Then we met, what, 30 years later, in New York.
Wendy Corr:
No kidding. Oh my gosh, that's so fun.
Kyle Pasewark:
So, you know, went there and then became a Christian while I was there. It's a small Lutheran College, and thought, you know, this religion stuff is kind of interesting. So then I went to graduate school at the University of Chicago for my PhD.
And there really weren't any, you know, opportunities at that time in Wyoming, which always sort of felt like home to me. But I will say that everywhere else I lived, I've, you know, with maybe one exception, I've really, I've loved being there.
Wendy Corr:
So what sort of path did you envision yourself on after leaving Augustana, after getting your PhD? What was the career path you were hoping for?
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, I thought - that's a really good question, because, you know, one of the things about my generation, and certainly the generations following, but I think my generation was really the first one there wasn't - I think all of us expected a single career, because that's what you know, mom and especially dad had.
Wendy Corr:
That's what you did.
Kyle Pasewark:
Yes, that's what you did. And there just aren't many people who do that anymore. And one of the benefits of having the education I had was that I had a lot of flexibility in terms of what I wanted to do.
So the career path was going to be, I was going to teach, and I was going to write as an academic. The market was not great. It's only gotten worse since then.
Plus, you know, I didn't want to be - I felt when I changed career paths, it wasn't just the market, you know. I thought I had really good ideas for about another 10 years, and after that, I could envision myself, you know, being one of those guys that was given the same old lecture for the next 30 years. And it was like, yeah, no, I don't really want to do that.
Plus, I'd done a lot more theoretical theological work and writing and teaching. And I thought, you know, I should try this out practically to see whether it actually works.
Wendy Corr:
So what did you end up doing? Because I know that you've written a book and that you've done a lot of other really interesting - and been on task forces, and you obviously gathered expertise to the point to where people go to you now and say, have at this project. And I think Kyle, you're the guy to help me with.
Kyle Pasewark:
Yeah. I mean after my theological career, I went to law school and got a job in a large firm in New York City.
Wendy Corr:
Wonderful. But back up, you didn't just go to law school. You didn't just go to law school. You went to Yale, and that's not just going to law school. That's a big deal, and that's a big step, and not very many Wyoming people end up going to Yale Law.
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, that's right. I mean, I had a career before that. I think that helped with admission. And you're right. I mean, I'll say it's very difficult to get in. I think, they had at that time, like, 8000 applications, and they accepted 180 people. But it was, but it was also one of the best.
Our first day, you know, when I was an incoming Yale Law student, the dean of students said, just because you're here doesn't mean you're any better than the next 500 people that we rejected. Because at this level, it was basically random. So, I prepared for the test really well and did what I needed to do.
And had also some, some really good advice from a Wyoming friend of mine who grew up in in Cheyenne, who became a lifelong friend. Unfortunately, passed away a couple of years ago, but he was a pre law advisor who was helpful in kind of helping me prepare the statement, and knowing what - because I didn't know anything about the process.
So it's hard to get in, but after five years out, nobody really cares.
Wendy Corr:
Okay, alright, well, I think it's very impressive. So you went to law school at Yale and worked in a major firm, worked in a big firm in New York City. And then from there, you became very specific in your focus and the things that you were doing. You decided not just to be in general law profession.
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, New York works differently than Wyoming, in that respect. In Wyoming, you know, if you're a lawyer, you got to do a little bit of everything.
Wendy Corr:
If you're in a large firm in New York, you don't.
Kyle Pasewark:
It is all extremely specialized. So I was a, you know, mergers and acquisitions in general, corporate lawyer. So did you know, did deals, you know, mostly for private equity firms, mostly for financial buyers.
But you had a whole team of people. You had, you know, tax people, you had employee benefits people, you had environmental people, you know, depending on the kind of business that you were, that you were buying or selling. So, you know, with the kind of work that those firms get, you really need a specialty.
Wendy Corr:
So to me, though, I mean mergers and acquisitions, that's a far cry from theology.
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, it is and it's not. I mean, it is, but, you know, a lot of my theological work was around the notion of God's power and God's omnipotence, and that's really kind of the major part of my work in developing,
thinking about God's power as being different than political power.
I mean political power is, you know, in its worst form is, let me beat you over the head with a stick and you submit, and I dominate. And that's it. That can't be God's power.
Because, you know, one of the things that that - you know, take the story of creation. God is creating things that are not God. And God's power operates, in my view, in a lot different way. It is providing and producing power for all.
You know, if you go back, the political analogy would be back in the day the first President Bush had a thing about, you know, charitable giving, 1000 points of light.
Wendy Corr:
I remember that.
Kyle Pasewark:
Yeah, people made fun of him. I gotta say I made fun, but it's okay, because he was, in that way, I think he was right. You know, God's power operates in that way. It diffuses, it is a gift. It's not a question of beating people over the head with a stick.
And so, you know, the mergers and acquisitions work you can do in a lot of different ways. The firm that I was at, which was a firm in Plympton, firms get the clients they deserve, and we had great clients, because it was a great firm, and, you know, full of like thoroughly decent human beings.
And the way they did deals, and the way their clients did deals, it was really, how do we make this work forever? I mean, you want to get more than the next guy, but you don't want to…
I mean, the thing about mergers and acquisitions is, if people get sick of you, they just call off the deal. So it really was, how do we make this work for everyone? And so that seemed to me to be actually a fairly practical application of the kind of work that I had done in theology.
Wendy Corr:
That is fantastic. I don't know that I've ever heard anybody talk about applying their theological values and beliefs to practice of laws. That's fantastic.
I want to shift gears slightly and take this into, you made your way back to Wyoming, but you're still doing work that you were trained to do and helping other people with that. So let's, let's get you back to Wyoming. How'd you get back to Wyoming from New York City?
Kyle Pasewark:
You know, I never thought I would come back. I mean, Wyoming always felt like home to me. You know, New York, I loved. My wife loved. You know, it will always feel like a second home to me, but, but Wyoming always kind of felt like the first home.
I never thought I would get back, but I did a pro bono thing out in Utah for who a friend of mine, who is a pre law advisor out there, and my law firm said, yeah, go ahead, do it, as long as you don't get paid. And so once a year, I would go out for a week in the summer to, you know, advise and help out, you know, his students and some other students.
And along, since my mom was still living in Laramie at that time, Suzanne would come out, and we would drive back to Laramie, we'd tack a little vacation onto it. And she said, You know, I really like this state. And I thought, well, then we should think about that. And you know, some years later, here we are.
Wendy Corr:
That's great. You found yourself in Clark, which is the opposite end of the state from where you started.
Kyle Pasewark:
Right.
Wendy Corr:
But you love it there, and you have created ties in Cody as well, and you've created a real wonderful community there, and joined a real wonderful community of people there. Tell us about the work that you're doing now in Cody. You've collaborated and are part of a grant with Christ Church, Christ Episcopal Church in Cody, which does some amazing philanthropical work. So let's talk about the work that you're doing in Cody.
Kyle Pasewark:
Yeah. I mean, officially, I'm supposed to be retired, but it doesn't quite work that way. So, you know, I got involved in Christ Church in Cody, my wife's Episcopalian, that's our church. And they do amazing work throughout the community.
One of the things that they have granted some money for, provided that we raise an extra half million dollars in the next four years, is to provide a scholar program that would for Wyoming indigenous high school graduates. And that program would be majority tribal managed, and at any one time it would support just a couple of students at a time.
There's a financial piece and a non financial piece. The financial piece is to provide kind of backstop funding, so beyond what an institution will provide, beyond what other scholarships will provide, for a student subject to continuing eligibility from the time they enter post secondary education until they say they're done.
So, one of the reasons we need cash reserves is if somebody else from Wyoming does Pel Law School, which doesn't offer merit scholarships, we've got to be able to pay for it because we want people to graduate from school, you know, debt free, so that their career decisions aren't being determined by the amount of money that they've got to pay back.
The the non financial piece is, and this is, when I worked with prospective law students. It was really important for them, it's especially important, I think, for it's even more important, maybe for first or second generation college students, was is to provide a dedicated advisor who will check in with them at least once a week, just to kind of spot opportunities, spot potential trouble issues, and just make sure that they…
You know, one of the one of the people on the Wind River that I've talked to about this said, well, the formula is student, family, tribe and community. The tribe and community part beyond the family, it just matters to know there's somebody in your corner, as well as providing, you know, content, sort of advice.
And then around that person there would be, you know, a bunch of peripheral advisors, you know, people like you and me, for example, who you know - no advisor is going to know every situation. So if you know, if a student is going to say a small, private liberal arts college where I both attended and taught and the advisor didn't, they could say, hey, I'll just call Kyle and find out what's going on at this kind of institution.
So provide that kind of help, and that's, you know, a couple hours a year. But really the dedicated advisor is, you know, really critical, I think, to people's success, you know, in addition to the financial piece.
So we're doing some fundraising on that, and trying to get some - it'll launch in a few years, we hope, because we want to get some publicity out and get the right people in because, or to get right, to get started on the right foot.
Wendy Corr:
Tell me how this particular opportunity came up. Where did this idea come from, to work with the tribes and to help the students on the reservation?
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, Suzanne and I had been thinking about this for our, you know, incredibly modest estate for some time, something like this. And then the church sold some property, and there was some money available, and there were various task forces that were set up to determine how to do it.
And I was part of a bunch of people who had, you know, who had ideas around, you know, indigenous students, and my wife and I thought, well, good, then we don't have to wait till we're dead to pull this off.
Wendy Corr:
That's good.
Kyle Pasewark:
The structure of it actually came from work I did with respective law students in helping them prepare for the admission test. And this is something I did after I practiced law for a while, you know, helping them with their statements and whatnot. And basically that business was everything I wanted as a prospective law student, but couldn't find, so I had to do it for myself.
And I thought, well, I can, I can help people do this. And it was incredibly successful. I think, you know, the average person on the test, just as an average, bumped their score up by 40 percentiles. And you know, some of them were starting in the 70th percentiles. They were obviously below that average. But it was really successful.
And one of the things that was so successful was I checked in with them all the time, and, you know, gave them assignments. It was a lot of work, but it was, aside from the content it was, I know somebody's behind me. I know I can go to somebody if I'm having trouble, and that made such a difference.
So, you know, having that kind of coaching, advising as part of this scholar program is, you know, a critical piece of it.
Wendy Corr:
So what you're talking about is the business that you had, the Advise-In. Is that correct? I love how you put that, all the information that you wish you had as an undergraduate student and as a beginning law student. This is what you were providing. You did this for several years. Tell us about it.
Kyle Pasewark:
I did it for about 15 years, shut it down last year. But, I mean, it was a very small business because it was a lot of labor, because I was trying to get them through the admissions test. And I had a lot of refugees from, like, the big box programs that, you know, well, now they're the big algorithm programs, they just don't provide the kind of support that people need.
And, you know, so I took, really, like, maybe 10 clients a year. It was very small because it was really labor intensive, because I was giving them assignments every day, of things that they had to do. I was reviewing what they did.
I mean, it was a coaching enterprise, and also just kind of getting them acclimated to kind of the environment, and, you know, doing things in a professional way, which is more than anything else, what law schools are looking for is they just, they want to graduate professionals, and the best way to do that is to admit professionals.
So it was really that whole kind of, you know, atmosphere, in addition to the actual assignments, it was a lot of work. But man, it really worked. And that's kind of the model for the Indigenous Scholar Program as well.
Wendy Corr:
That's wonderful. So you said the Indigenous Scholar Program isn't going to happen for a couple years, yet you're still in the planning phases. What's, where's that? And how do people get involved and know about this, either to support it themselves, or if they know somebody who might be a candidate?
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, we're in the planning phases. The support you can give, you can pledge now, contact me. You know, we're setting up the entity, that should be set up within a couple of months. We're assembling the board of directors, the initial board of directors.
The actual awards, they're going to be a few years off, because we want to have everything kind of in place. And we want to get out to high schools, possibly even even middle schools, to let people know that it's out there, and this is a part of - this interview, which you're very helpfully and kindly doing, is part of letting people know that this kind of thing is afoot.
And because we want to get it right, something like this, you have - no program is perfect. You're always going to make mistakes. We don't want to make mistakes at the beginning. We would rather have those further down the road.
So, you know, getting applicants who are going to be, who are really committed to their education, getting advisors who are committed to them, it'll produce a multiplier down the road, and some momentum for the program and for the communities that these students are going to come from.
So yeah, we're going to launch the awards, hopefully within three years, we're raising money now.
Wendy Corr:
How many students are you hoping to get as part of this program, you know, at any one time?
Kyle Pasewark:
And this is partly because every institution I've ever attended or taught at or, you know, the advising Solutions program that I ran was very small, and so part of it is just a personal preference. I prefer small. Part of it too is that this kind of thing doesn't scale that well.
So at any one time we're really looking at just a couple of students, because that's who we can get. I'm confident that we can get terrific advisors for those couple of students. I'm confident that we can find the right students.
I mean, there are other, you know, scholarship programs around that are, you know, a couple $1,000 here, a couple of $1,000 there. That's not what this is. And there are other scholarship programs that give you know, occasional check in advice. That's not what this is either. This is an intensive commitment to a couple of students per year.
Wendy Corr:
And what are you hoping then that this support will provide for those students? How do you project that this will change their lives? Because I'm assuming that that's what you want to do, that your goal is to step in and change the lives of these couple of students per year. What do you want to see happen? What's your vision?
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, you know, it's still true in this country, that the single most important differentiator of economic prospects is higher education, or not having higher education. If you factor out income, if you factor out race, if you factor out all of that stuff, the single most important economic determinant is having a higher education or not having a higher education.
Now I also use that as a proxy for Life Options, that you have just a lot more life options and choices and the opportunity to determine your own course if you have higher education. So that's really what it is.
I mean, it's not, it's not like we want to have their programs that do this, but it's not like, Oh, you have to be a physicist, or you have to be this, or you have to be that, because part of education, especially now, is discovering what you want to do and what you want to be, and having, you know, the flexibility in an uncertain economy of being able to change gears, which is, you know, as you've implied, something I'm intimately familiar with.
Wendy Corr:
Yes, I get this. Yeah, I resemble that.
Kyle Pasewark:
So yeah, I mean, your career, I think is another example of that, and that's just more the norm now than it used to be. And you know, a lot of a lot of these, one of the reasons to do this in a low populated state with even a smaller population group that is relatively, you know, concentrated, is that the multiplier effect for the community that that these kids are coming from is just a lot higher in a place like Wyoming.
And if you put, if you have a program for, you know, a couple of students in Houston, it's great for those students, right? But, but the multiplier effect that you're getting in Houston is not very large, because it's just a couple of people in this massive thing. In Wyoming, it's different.
And even if, even if people don't stay here for their whole lives, I mean, they can do what I did, they can leave and come back, or they can stay. You know, the multiplier effect of an intensive program like this, for a low populated state like Wyoming is just so much greater than it is in more populous regions.
So this is kind of the ideal place for a program like this.
Wendy Corr:
And I think that takes us to, kind of a final wrap up idea topic, the idea that, what is it about Wyoming that makes this state crank out such really amazing people that they want to leave, they want to get that experience, and they want to bring it back. What is it about Wyoming? Now that you've grown up here, you've been away, and you've come back. What do you see, as far as the Wyoming people and the future of Wyoming's youth?
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, Wyoming's changed a lot since when I was growing up. But, you know, culturally it hasn't. Politically, it's changed a lot. Culturally it hasn't changed that much. And people are still, you know, it's a little harder to tell now, because politics has so overwhelmed culture in the national conversation, but if you can keep them distinct, I think Wyoming is culturally, you know, similar to to what it was.
And there's no place like it. And even people who - my older brother is never, you know, he's probably never going to come back to Wyoming, but he loves it. And you know kids that I grew up with, and you know who I went to grade school with, some of them are here. Some of them are not here, but all of them, there's just an atmosphere about this place.
And again, putting aside politics, which I think is unfortunately changing it a little bit, an openness and a willingness to do what's best for your neighbor. And it's not, it's not that those things aren't in other places that I've lived, but I will say they're harder to find because you have to fight through so many more people to do.
I mean, I don't think that people in Wyoming are, I don't think we're necessarily nicer than anybody else. But it's easier to find here, just because you run into so few people, and you can create - the communities are also different growing up here, and it's still true here. There's one school that everybody goes to. There's one, you know, there's, there's one Episcopal Church, there's one Lutheran Church.
So the socio economic stratification isn't as significant. I mean, you meet people from all walks of life. You went to school with people from all walks of life. You go to church for people with all walks of life. And as much as I loved living in New York for 20 years, that was not something you saw. You were in your neighborhood, and you went to institutions that were basically people just like you.
So in my case, you know, professional, you know, well educated, whatever, I don't want to just be around people like me my whole life. So, you know, Wyoming, I think, helps you meet people who are socioeconomically and culturally a lot different than you are.
And that provides opportunities that we ought to be using more to understand kind of, you know, how other people are living their lives, and it provides also an ability to, you know, interact and intersect and provide places of of mutual growth and mutual power.
Wendy Corr:
You know, I think this is one of those cases where we say the low population works in our favor, absolutely. Because, we've said it before, I've said it many times on this program, Wyoming is one big small town with really long streets, but a big small town - because there's connections to everywhere.
And that's what makes programs like what you're working on and what you and Christ Church are working on, what makes those work, is because of the networking that happens within the state from all walks. And I think that's fantastic.
Kyle Pasewark:
That's right. I mean, Wyoming has, I think, a statewide consciousness that is different than anywhere I've ever been. It's, I mean, you know, it's ‘One Wyoming.’
Wendy Corr:
Yes, I love it. Oh, my gosh, it's One Wyoming, oh, we have to use that. That's fantastic.
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, it's not mine. I think the football team uses it.
Wendy Corr:
Okay, well, that's true. They did. They did, yeah, never mind. But we are One Wyoming. And I love that, so I think that's going to be my title for this podcast, Kyle Pasewark, One Wyoming. That's exactly right.
Kyle, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for giving us and shining a light into the work that you're doing and this project that you're working on, and thank you for going away, getting this experience and then bringing it back home.
Kyle Pasewark:
Well, it is my pleasure, especially to be back. And thank you for this opportunity and for actually, all the work that you and Cowboy State Daily do. You are a wonderful resource in One Wyoming.
Wendy Corr:
We appreciate that, but that is our goal. That is our goal at Cowboy State Daily, we really do want to represent all these different aspects and reflect all these different aspects of the things that are happening in Wyoming. And I think that's one of the things that we are so grateful for as we get into this new year, this 2025.
There's so many wonderful guests yet to be featured on The Roundup, and so if you have an idea, folks out there, of somebody that should be a guest that we need to hear from, like Kyle, please let me know. I'd be glad to reach out to them, but, until then, we're grateful to you, Kyle. Thank you for your time today and folks, thank you for tuning in.
Stay tuned - next week, we have another great guest, so don't go away. We'll talk to you soon.
